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Thread: So, I've been listening to a lot Rippingtons, Toto, etc

  1. #11
    Axetastic doublewah's Avatar
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    Blues -

    1 - High level jazz (any kind) is like top level pro sports. No-one can play the game at this level without talent and lots of practice time.
    (By the way, your English has never seemed limited to me.)

    2 - Congratulations on your getting married. And if she introduced you to Toto and the Rippingtons, she is a keeper!

    3 - Here is a common 12-bar blues progression:

    || Bb | Eb | Bb | Bb |

    || Eb | Eb | Bb | Bb |

    || Cm7 | F7 | Bb | F7 ||

    The "Cm7 - F7 - Bb" in bars 9 to 11? That's a 2-5-1 progression.

    If you want to scan a couple church charts and post them in this thread, I can point out any 2-5-1 progressions in them, or anything else that catches my eye.

    4 - Parent scales is my term. I don't think anyone else uses it, but it is similar to what Pat Martino says about parent chords.
    What I mean by it is that of the 7 modes of the major scale, 3 of them contain the Major pentatonic, and 3 of them contain the Minor pentatonic. Or we could say that by adding 2 notes to the Major pentatonic, you can create 3 of the modes, depending on where you put those notes. And by adding 2 notes to the Minor pentatonic, you can create 3 of the modes, depending on where you put those notes.
    So when I look at a mode, I see it's parent pentatonic scale first. This is important, because the 5 notes of the mode's parent pentatonic scale are the most commonly played anyway.
    The reason I brought up the parent pentatonic scale is that you already know your pentatonics. I like to build knowledge on already established knowledge.
    (The Locrian mode is the least played mode of the 7 major scale modes. It does not use either of the pentatonic scales.)

    And it shouldn't take you a couple weeks to tackle this - unless you meant that as a married man, you won't have time to have a look at this for a couple weeks. ;-)
    I will make an easily understood (hopefully) lesson in a future post.

    5 - One thing that a lot of jazz teachers do (especially with guitar students) is to get them comfortable playing over the blues, and to take any new knowledge to the blues. (Again, building knowledge on already established knowledge.)

    As for listening suggestions, I listen to Pat Martino and Wes Montgomery for this kind of knowledge.
    I bought a relic'd guitar because I liked the way it sounded. Then I refinished it because I didn't like the way it looked.

  2. #12
    Axetastic doublewah's Avatar
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    Find a fake book of the American Songbook. That is the modern term for the timeless classics of 20th century pop music. Look at the list of songs, and if you can hum part of the melody of any of them, learn these songs first. Take one song at a time. For now pick the ones that have the simplest melody. Learn to play the melody on guitar. Learn to solo over the song later. Keep this in mind - if you could create a solo as good as that melody, you would be writing hit songs. There is gold in that melody! Learn it.

    I am not a strong reader, so if I want to learn a jazz standard, I listen to at least five versions of it. To get the unadorned melody in my head, I will try to find a singer like Doris Day. Then when I have digested that, I will listen to some of my favourite singers and soloists singing and playing it.
    I bought a relic'd guitar because I liked the way it sounded. Then I refinished it because I didn't like the way it looked.

  3. #13
    Axetastic itsallintheblues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublewah View Post
    Blues -

    2 - Congratulations on your getting married. And if she introduced you to Toto and the Rippingtons, she is a keeper!


    As for listening suggestions, I listen to Pat Martino and Wes Montgomery for this kind of knowledge.
    Not only those, but Pat Metheny, David Beniot, Tears for Fears,

    and other bands like Chicago, Orleans, etc. Stuff I dont listen to, because it's too jazz, or fusion or too folk. but I'm slowly realizing that these guys were one of the best in their time. I mean no auto-tunes, no fancy stuff, their passion, heart and skill were poured out into their music.

    YES SHES A KEEPER! haha

    Thanks for the suggestions, listening to Wes Montgomery now. He's good!

  4. #14
    Super Moderator die Bullen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsallintheblues View Post
    Wow! this is a lot to take in, but very informative.

    5. After listening to blues over and over again, listening to Hendrix (even if I dont like him), SRV, BB King, Albert King, Eric Clapton, Muddy Waters, etc. all those blues legends, I kind of growing tired of hearing the same notes, similar solos and all. I still love blues, but would want to supplement my listening and learning with something new to incorporate to my overall musicality and be able to adapt more to songs that I cant enjoy playing with a guitar.
    Well this comment from you says it all. If you are sick of listening to similar guitar solos, try listening to what they sound like on other instruments. Better yet, listen to what they sounded like when they were written. St. Louis Blues was written by WC Handy (a cornet player) in 1914- you think these guys were playing lead guitar on this song? That guitar was probably a banjo because it was the only thing loud enough to compete. Sure sometimes the fidelity isn’t there on the really old recordings, but you get a clearer picture of how this all started.

    People built upon the early foundation for generations- there would be no SRV without WC Handy. Talk about no autotune and gadgets- you think Louis Armstrong or Kid Ory had autotune or even amplification in the 1920’s? All these guys had were their instruments and maybe a toilet plunger occasionally stuffed in the horn for effects.

    If you want to learn jazz, looking at Chicago and Tears for Fears (both rock bands) is looking in the wrong place because they are not jazz either.

    This is however - listen to Trummy Young rip on that trombone at 1:30- no effects, baby. What he's playing isn't even that hard- it is all articulation:


  5. #15
    Super Moderator die Bullen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublewah View Post
    dB, it would be very helpful for all of us if you could take a picture of this sometime and post it here.
    Here is a picture, as requested:

    D# (Eb) Dorian and F Phyrigian

    I use this with my son every single day to cycle through major and minor modes by formula
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  6. #16
    Super Moderator die Bullen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublewah View Post
    Find a fake book of the American Songbook. Look at the list of songs, and if you can hum part of the melody of any of them, learn these songs first. Take one song at a time. For now pick the ones that have the simplest melody. Learn to play the melody on guitar. Learn to solo over the song later. Keep this in mind - if you could create a solo as good as that melody, you would be writing hit songs. There is gold in that melody! Learn it.
    This really is the way to do it. In the words of my son (who said this when he was 10 years old)- "If you can't improvise over a song it means you don't know the song well enough".

    So simple and yet so true. If you don't know what the melody is or at least what the chords are doing you are lost. Ain't Misbehavin' is a simple 32 bar AABA form- this means you really only need to know 8 bars of the A theme (it is played 3 times) and 8 bars of the B theme. This is one of the most common structures for jazz. Believe me what you hear as "random" from the soloists is anything but that. They are listening to the chords measure for measure and probably either playing around the melody or playing around the chords. Blues is is even easier because often it consists of 8 or 12 bar themes that loop the entire song, which gets a bit dull for me.

  7. #17
    Axetastic doublewah's Avatar
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    Blues, I hope you realize that you have only just opened a door to a world of great music. Or maybe your wife has opened that door for you. And maybe I should be saying a few doors to a few genres of really great music. Some of the great pop music of the past half century was played by jazz musicians who were paying the bills, by the way. I am sure that this has something to do with the quality of music.

    I for one am celebrating your curiosity and eagerness to learn.
    I bought a relic'd guitar because I liked the way it sounded. Then I refinished it because I didn't like the way it looked.

  8. #18
    Axetastic doublewah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by die Bullen View Post
    Here is a picture, as requested:

    D# (Eb) Dorian and F Phyrigian

    I use this with my son every single day to cycle through major and minor modes by formula
    Is there a reason for the choice of colours?

    I'm thinking you should make a book of this. It might be a sellable and very useful teaching aid.
    I bought a relic'd guitar because I liked the way it sounded. Then I refinished it because I didn't like the way it looked.

  9. #19
    Axetastic doublewah's Avatar
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    Pentatonics as parent scales - 1

    The 3 modes below all contain the 5 notes of the Major pentatonic scale.
    Play the Major pentatonic scale, then play one of the modes. Go back and forth between the Major pentatonic scale and the mode.
    Spend at least a couple of minutes with this. Then do the same with the other 2 modes.

    C Major Pentatonic
    E|--------------------
    B|--------------------
    G|--------------2--5--
    D|--------2--5--------
    A|--3--5--------------
    E|--------------------

    C Ionian Mode
    E|--------------------------
    B|--------------------------
    G|-----------------2--4--5--
    D|--------2--3--5-----------
    A|--3--5--------------------
    E|--------------------------

    C Mixolydian Mode
    E|--------------------------
    B|--------------------------
    G|-----------------2--3--5--
    D|--------2--3--5-----------
    A|--3--5--------------------
    E|--------------------------

    C Lydian Mode

    E|--------------------------
    B|--------------------------
    G|-----------------2--4--5--
    D|--------2--4--5-----------
    A|--3--5--------------------
    E|--------------------------
    I bought a relic'd guitar because I liked the way it sounded. Then I refinished it because I didn't like the way it looked.

  10. #20
    Axetastic doublewah's Avatar
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    Pentatonics as parent scales - 2

    The 3 modes below all contain the 5 notes of the Minor pentatonic scale.
    Play the Minor pentatonic scale, then play one of the modes. Go back and forth between the Minor pentatonic scale and the mode.
    Spend at least a couple of minutes with this. Then do the same with the other 2 modes.

    C Minor Pentatonic
    E|--------------------
    B|--------------------
    G|--------------3--5--
    D|--------3--5--------
    A|--3--6--------------
    E|--------------------

    C Dorian Mode
    E|--------------------------
    B|--------------------------
    G|-----------------2--3--5--
    D|-----------3--5-----------
    A|--3--5--6-----------------
    E|--------------------------

    C Aeolian Mode
    E|--------------------------
    B|--------------------------
    G|--------------------3--5--
    D|-----------3--5--6--------
    A|--3--5--6-----------------
    E|--------------------------

    C Phrygian Mode
    E|--------------------------
    B|--------------------------
    G|--------------------3--5--
    D|-----------3--5--6--------
    A|--3--4--6-----------------
    E|--------------------------
    I bought a relic'd guitar because I liked the way it sounded. Then I refinished it because I didn't like the way it looked.

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